From: John Murtari (jmurtari@akidsright.org)
Date: Fri Apr 27 2007 - 20:40:24 EDT
Good People & People of Faith,
There has been quite a bit of FEEDBACK! People wonder why we are not
more united? I think the sincere thoughts you read below will make it
clear.... we don't believe the same things. We don't share the same
goals. I've seen items from 'respectable' reform groups saying 'we
should distance ourselves from Mr. Baldwin' -- wow! Please, don't get
angry at the opposing views, they can be easy to dismiss, but try to
understand....who do you stand with? What will you sacrifice for?
Below is video of a TV show by Mr. Baldwin done today, Friday, on "The
View". He simply did a masterful job and took control of the
interview (I guess a big star can do that!). More importantly, the
words he used were 'our words', the feelings he expressed about his
child were 'our feelings'. Most amazingly, he wants to give up
'Hollywood' for a while and focus on Family Law Reform! Same
interview, two different locations below:
http://www.acidplanet.com/artist.asp?PID=973768&t=8863
http://abc.go.com/daytime/theview/
One more thing, as you read the comments below. If your contact with
the children you love was at risk -- which of the people below would
you want to be your Judge & Jury? The original message can be found
at: http://www.AKidsRight.Org/wordpress -- you can leave more
comments.
In the feedback below your messages are always prefaced with ">", the
other text is my response. The following ">" represents your later
reply. You get the last word!
FEEDBACK - understanding Alec Baldwin
-------------------------------------
--- mark@madelf.com
> I remember conversations like that . . .
Thanks for a bit of real life and common sense. We are human, we are
emotional, sometimes these things happen, but we kiss, make-up,
forget, and get over it....
> It's a really tough position to be in for all involved. Really
> tough. My heart goes out to them all.
--- "NEJAD, JOHN K" <jnejad@oppd.com>
> I perfectly understand Mr. Baldwin's situation. He has been given
> less than equal time w/ his kid, and the mother probably
> manipulating the child to confront her own father. That is why he is
> angry. I go through this situation every single day.
--- Ted Hayes <tedhayes@domevillage.org> http://www.domevillage.org/
> Right on for Mr. Baldwin.
...they want to inhibit contact because of this, and that only stops
any healing. I can remember some real 'moments' between my mom and I
when some tough things were said, but there were always hugs later and
the 'moment' was just forgotten...
... I admire what you did with Dome Village -- one person has a lot of
power, you just need to try. I hope more parents will start doing
that instead of waiting for help from someone else.
--- "Stephen Baskerville" <sbaskerville@cox.net> http://www.acfc.org/
> Nice piece, John. Gutsy and needs saying. I will forward it to our
> board.
--- Don Mathis <fourteenpercenter@yahoo.com>
> Thanks for your insight.
--- "Stan 75" <kickstan@hotmail.com>
> You're right on the money as usual.
Well, thanks for the vote of confidence. I'll try to remember that
next time I'm in jail!!!!
--- "Kim Berry" <kberry@surewest.net>
> Hannity just said he should be arrested for his threats.
> I agree with you. Raising voice on the phone is a natural reaction
> to being dissed. Sure he should have directed the message to the
> mother.
> I went through divorce hell - including a criminal trial for DV -
> acquitted when DA pursued a zero case under zero-tolerance policy.
> My brother went through similar long-distance hell, flying across
> country for schedule weekend visits, only to find on one waiting and
> no answer the phones, followed by nonsense excuses.
> Good for you for standing up for him. If FC did their job men would
> not be pressed to this desperation.
... That people call for 'arrest' just shows how far we have to go in
shifting public opinion..... But I feel it is no more than what was
required to break the back of segregation, to make white people
finally see blacks as BROTHERS and EQUAL human being -- the love we
have for our kids is a powerful force, we just have to have the Faith
to use it.
--- Stephen Metzger <icaworld@optonline.net>
> I fully agree with you. I heard the same mocking remarks from Sean
> Hannity this afternoon, and when I got back to my office, e-mailed
> him my thoughts--in particular that he had no business making
> judgments when he had little idea of what was involved, and other
> words to that effect. On the same show this dupe was talking
> excitedly about watching his son play baseball!
--- "Imandt, Carol A." <CImandt@qcc.cuny.edu>
> So very right John - I have emailed my response to this to various
> newspapers on their websites - I suggest we all do the same in
> defense of one of us -
> Non-custodial parents everywhere can identify with Alec Baldwin's
> frustrations about parenting. He expresses his emotions honestly.
> I find it very troubling that his ex has chosen to publicly
> humiliate him and their daughter with the release of this tape.
> Every little girl loves her father. After a divorce, it is crucial
> to the stability of the child that parents respect each other's
> visitation rights. The problem lies when one parent poisons the
> children against the other.
> Divorce hacks and the family courts instigate this type of
> behavior. The only ones that win these custody battles are the
> lawyers.
--- Douglas Richardson <dougmrich@yahoo.com>
http://www.alecbaldwin.com/
> I have been a member of Alec Baldwins site for some time. He is
> personally an advocate of the same rights we stand for. I have been
> fighting and arguing for him all morning in his guest book as he is
> being abusively attacked.
> ... This is all about parental alienation syndrome and the over
> abundance of jurisdiction the courts hold destroying a child parent
> relationship.
--- Mark <mark@ivalenti.com>
> I thought you had flipped your lid... until I took a little time to
> reflect.
> I do agree with you. I find what Baldwin did reprehensible, and
> that's my own personal opinion... but not a judgment. I am not a
> part of that family, for all practical purposes I know nothing about
> what actually led up to that call, and as a matter of fact, neither
> the events leading up to the call, or the call itself are any of my
> (or anyone else's) damn business.
> ... But like you however, I would defend his right to parent how he
> sees fit to the end. There are lines that can be crossed in my
> opinion, but I'm not suited to make that judgment unless it happens
> in front of me, or someone comes to me for help. In a case like
> that I would have to take each step as it comes. However, I'm not
> going to (nor should anyone) go out looking to "improve" anyone's
> childhood experience just for warm fuzzies (or a paycheck).
--- Valerie <VANemeth@cs.com> http://WWW.ENTLAWYER.COM/
> I agree with you completely. While his words and demeanor may have
> been harsh, his interest in his child is clear and is more than can
> be said about so many who abandon their children. If we chastised
> and violated the privacy of every parent who had raised their voices
> to their children, what a chilling effect this would have on
> parenthood. Very sad.
--- xavier lane <fatheralienation@yahoo.com>
> Children will thrive when both parents are involved. The problem is
> that people without sufficient credentials are making assessments
> that they have no business making. They make these assessments based
> on false allegations,fraud,perjury,circumventing the law. Then the
> judge rubber stamps the order then violating constitutional due
> process. Parents rights are constitutionally protected so tell me
> why the States war against their own Constitution and the US
> Constitution. Would they allow anyone to make those decisions for
> them if the shoe were on the other foot? They would use every means
> necessary to clear their name.
--- Peter Hill <CHIROHILL@aol.com>
> What Mr. Baldwin said to his daughter was wrong.
> That being said, Alec Baldwin acted out in frustration over a
> condition known as Parent Alienation. I urge all readers to read up
> on this before you pass judgment on Alec Baldwin. There is nothing
> more important to a parent than ones child and one can not
> understand the rage a person feels when someone as so close and dear
> to them is taken from them by Alienation.
> ... Some people can't handle being the target of the Alienation and
> they lash out as Alec did. It does not mean he is a bad father, but
> one who feels such strong feelings for his child and is so
> frustrated that he can't understand how ones love can be not
> returned that he lashed out at his child...
> Till people can walk in the shoes of being the target of parent
> alienation, they should temper their criticism of those parents.
> One can not underestimate the emotions, and feelings that come from
> being alienated from those that you love.
I like what you said... It is a lot of good common sense. I've heard
some people that want to 'punish' him for it, cut off his visits even
more -- what a shame, and in the long run it just hurts the whole
family.
--- "EARL FIBISH" <earl9876@msn.com>
> Conservative commentator Michael Savage spoke in defense of Alec
> Baldwin on his radio show today. He correctly identified Baldwin's
> outburst with parental alienation syndrome caused by Kim Bassinger
> (the girl's mother). He likened Baldwin's circumstances to a bull in
> a cage that is continuously poked with sticks to the point that it
> can no longer tolerate the abuse, and charges.
> As I see it, this marks a major sea-change for Savage: in the past,
> he has only attacked feminism for impeding a man's capacity to be
> provider and protector. Now he acknowledges feminism's devastation
> on men and fathers in divorce court. Millions listen to Savage's
> show every weekday!!
--- "Burke, John" <John.Burke@aliant.ca>
> The "what's best" can be used to take anyone children away based on
> a thousand different views. You could argue that neither of those
> actors should have their children because it may be in the best
> interest of those kids to be put in a more traditional family
> setting. Then throw in some stats on star kids.
> If a family is having a hard time with money it's probably in the
> best interest to take those kids right out of there and give them to
> some rich family looking for a child.
> He was obviously very upset in the call, he no doubt realizes he
> made a mistake, but who knows what he has gone through. At least he
> is trying.
--- "Amy Houghton" <amyhousr@hotmail.com>
http://www.grandparentsforchildren.org/
> I was having the exact same thoughts myself. Anything can be
> twisted to suit a means. In our case, painting my little
> granddaughters room for her birthday. When I removed the tape from
> the baseboards, it stuck to me. The children laughed, and we started
> to play with sticking it on each other. Next day they were removed
> by CPS. For 16 months we fought back. No visitation, not even a
> phone call. They were put on psychotropic drugs. They told the
> truth, as did we. But no one listened. My children were abused,
> molested, and drugged to the point (quoted from dhs caseworker)" He
> was on floor, incoherent, and lethargic.I couldn't wake him up. It
> was his 5th birthday".(unquote)
> I plan to attend the first international conference ,sponsored
> by The National Committee of Grandparents for Children org.
> It will be in N.Y. on May 6-8 2007. At Marriott on the Bridge in
> Brooklyn,N.Y.
--- Debra Root <dusty6873@yahoo.com>
> I had the same feelings you had regarding the recent disclosure of
> Alec Baldwin's phone conversation with his daughter.
> As a non-custodial mother who can only see her youngest son in a
> supervised facility 3 hours away by plane-I fully understand his
> frustration and humiliation.
> The man has apologized. He was trying to be a parent but he was a
> little heavy-handed. How many parents could stand up to such
> scrutiny? Where are the videos and phone conversations that display
> him in another light-as a loving father?
> I can only hope that this high-profile case will increase awareness
> of those of us who have suffered and continue to suffer the
> alienation-physical, emotional or both, of a child.
> I write this with tears in my eyes. My son, now age 13, wants to
> come see me. Always has. But his father and stepmother will not
> allow it. They had the money for high-priced lawyers and I did not.
> And so it goes.
--- Ray <Caribbeancamera@aol.com>
> John -- I completely agree with you. People who wish to cast stones
> at Mr Baldwin will do well to realize just how frustrating it
> becomes for good fathers to be pushed aside by vindictive mothers,
> who do their best to alienate the children from the fathers. This
> incident cannot be viewed in isolation, but must be seen in the
> context of the six years of hell this man has been put through by
> his ex-wife, and just how painful it is for fathers to be relegated
> to a minor role in their children's lives. Mr Baldwin should have
> realized, of course, it's not the child's fault, and should not have
> vented his anger on her, but sometimes you lose it, and it's the
> only way to get the kid to understand that you still love them and
> how frustrating it is for you to be cast aside by vindictive mothers
> who, by the way, only alienate the children to spite the father. If
> the mother was "seeking the best interest of the child" then she
> would understand how important it is for them to have a father in
> their lives, no? As for the tape reaching Entertainment Tonight --
> more spite. Just to embarrass and degrade the man. Did Ms Basinger
> stop to think how her daughter would feel hearing her berated on
> national TV by her father? This is so f**ked up. Poor kid.
... He and his wife should have just been EQUAL parents, like you say,
the poor kid. All this just did not need to happen.
--- Adryenn Ashley Neuenburg <adryenn_ashley@yahoo.com>
> ... Alec made a boo boo. It would have been one thing to parent a
> child in a live conversation where wiretapping would have been the
> only way to get the call on tape. He should know, and his attorney
> should have told him, a message machine is exempt from wiretapping
> laws. Anything said on it does not have the same expectation of
> privacy and can be aired publicly. THat's how I caught my
> husbands old attorney for perjury (since I couldn't use the tapes of
> the confession).
> Personally, I believe that it is productive to keep all feelings
> self directed: "I was really looking forward to this call and you
> not answering is making me feel bad." The idea being that his
> calling HER names, for making HIM feel bad is displacing the anger
> and putting it on her. He can only be responsible for his own
> feelings. And by framing the discussion using I the other person is
> less likely to feel attacked, and more willing to participate in the
> conversation. That has nothing to do with parenting and everything
> to do with interpersonal communications.
> There is a lot of anger in that family unit, and the battling
> parents have stuck Ireland in the middle, which sucks. But he isn't
> doing himself any favors. The way the system is set up, he needs to
> be perfect and she needs to be a whack job before he's going to win.
> Yes, equal would reduce the tension in most divorces. But the
> women's lobby will never let that be the defacto ruling because of
> the significant loss of power involved. That's why I am educating
> women to keep their power and not hand it over to the court and the
> "system" that is just out to suck the money from the family unit.
> Mediation, substantially equal time, and splitting expenses makes
> for more money for the child all around, and a happier healthier
> kid. Presented that way, most parents agree.
You have a great analysis below of redirecting frustration, but
haven't we all done it? ... But get the 'system' involved and it
becomes a 'process', contact can be blocked and any natural 'healing'
is stopped.
I agree with what you say about the politics of reform and why change
is opposed. That is why I think it is so essential that we identify
ourselves as parents working to protect the integrity of parent/child
relationships, even the 'poor' ones. People motivate by love are
willing to make personal loving sacrifice for their beliefs, those
motivate by power rarely are.
--- Mike <mnlittle@prodigy.net>
> In my opinion, based on years of experience, the divorce industry is
> directly to blame for situations such as this. And they will reward
> it. Why? Because they reward conflict. Conflict leads to fees.
> Attorney's fees, court fees, social study fees, etc. The divorce
> industry knew that their system would cause something like this and
> that they can make money from it. The divorce industry feeds on
> human misery. The don't care who they hurt to make their money.
> And they make lots of it.
--- Anthony Gallo <Nychero11105@aol.com>
http://anthonygallo.exploretalent.com/
> I Anthony Gallo is in a similar situation. Recently I e-mailed my
> daughter only to get a nasty response back "I don't want to see you
> no more. I am happy with just my mommy" she said, along with much
> more. It hurt so much even though I do think it was mommy to begin
> with. I replied that I was going to stop making her come to see me
> (it has been over a year and a half and she still does not allow me
> to pet her dog, nor does she answer my questions. No-one finds this
> strange except me) I said I was going to have another child but she
> will always be in my heart because she was my first, and that when
> she was ready she could come and see me......................that I
> would be waiting. I addressed my ex and said that she was going to
> hell for what she is doing, and I lost my visits.
--- Peter Burns <dad4justice@yahoo.com.au>
> I agree as my two daughters have been brainwashed and poisoned to
> hate me because of a vengeful and vindictive custodial mother . The
> frustration and painful heartbreak of being alienated from your
> flesh and blood children cannot be described in words . I am into my
> sixth miserable year and my sympathy extends to Mr Baldwin .
--- Deborah Kelly <dlbkelly@yahoo.com>
> John, you wrote that so well! All so very true. One thing of
> interest, the story you quote does not mention what others do, that
> "Basinger was charged with contempt of court last year for violating
> a 2004 custody arrangement." So, she is no better, no worse.
--- rc woody <hawkman_019@yahoo.com>
> Once again the media goes for the sensationalism, and ignores the
> real facts.
> I don't agree with Mr. Baldwin's reaction, but I understand it. As
> the Father, I feel he should have taken "the higher ground" when
> dealing with his daughter.
> In his defense, no one knows what has happened prior to his
> comments. Was there a conversation with his daughter where she was
> being coached by mom in order to get this reaction out of dad for
> mom's own personal gain?
> We all know how manipulative the "other" parent can be and the
> frustration that always follows. We all know that mom has probably
> repeatedly shown and said things to degrade dad so the kids feel
> that they don't have to respect him anymore. On top of this, we all
> know that kids can eventually get to a point where they figure out
> they can play each side of the parents to get what they want.
> The talking heads that are screaming for child abuse charges against
> Mr. Baldwin... Why don't they address the real issue as to how our
> corrupt family court system brings this kind of behavior and chaos
> by their biased and often Spartan rulings, or explore just how
> damaging parental alienation of affection is, and how often it's
> used. The reason they won't bring that to light is that if Joint
> custody becomes the rule instead of the exception, their Lawyer
> buddies will have to actually start working to earn a living....
--- Charles <COOGAAH@aol.com>
> I agree with your sentiments completely! Is there anyone who has
> not, at some time become annoyed, angry and then verbally exploded
> when under strain.
> Baldwins case is, as many are, long running stories of one
> controlling partner causing psychological trauma with their actions.
> The difference in his case it has been played out publicly.
> He has been denied contact and his ex partner has broken court
> orders, which I am sure rings a very loud bell with many! Baldwin
> should not be condemned for his outburst but should receive sympathy
> for his plight.
> ... Alex Baldwin needs understanding not condemnation form the
> infantile minded media and tabloid brained masses. Good luck to
> Alex Baldwin and his child and to all other parents and children in
> similar positions.
FEEDBACK - Alec Baldwin is a bad parent
---------------------------------------
--- Berni <BerniD21@aol.com>
> Was that what Baldwin was doing, parenting his child? Sounded more
> like a 2-year old's temper tantrum.
--- dd33306@yahoo.com
> I completely disagree. This was nothing other than child abuse and
> its why I am certain he alienated himself from his daughter. Abusive
> people always blame others. I hope they terminate his parental
> rights. What a sorry excuse for a father.
I think we both are assuming that this 'event' was brought on by the
additional stress of unequal parenting and the 'system' looking for
'who is the best parent?' Also, that Mr. Baldwin realizes he said a
foolish thing to his daughter and is sorry. But that you feel an event
like this rises to the level of conduct that would justify a permanent
parent/child separation?
> Any parent mother or father who talks to their child like that has
> no right to be a parent. It's abuse.
--- "Michael L. Oddenino" <oddlaw@pacbell.net>
> There is no excuse for Baldwin's tirade against his child. It is
> indefensible. Period.
... what [do] you think the consequences should be? Like any family
issue, let's assume their was some 'history' here that we are not
aware, there was an outburst, and let's assume an apology and regret
by Mr. Baldwin. Now, some would say we should limit his contact, have
supervised visits, etc... What do you think? When does 'society'
have the right to intervene in family life?
> ... As for the remedy, obviously there must be an investigation into
> why the mom didn't insure the court ordered phone call to take
> place. Baldwin's tirade against the child, however, will probably
> force the court to suspend visitation until a court hearing can be
> held and someone can counsel the child. Once all the facts are
> determined, assuming no threat is present to the child, then
> resumption of visitation should commence without monitoring.
> Society has a right to intervene in a family when the family enters
> the court system voluntarily or when there is a danger to the
> children. The real question is how much intervention and what type
> of intervention should be permissible.
--- Jan <TIDDYBEAR@aol.com>
> ... but since I read this I have heard the tape of his voice mail,
> and it IS pretty bad. If I were his ex, I would have a restraining
> order put on him immediately. He would be ABLE to talk to his
> daughter as he says on the voice mail!
--- LIFERMAN007@aol.com
> I'm sure Baldwin is going through hell with this divorce and I'm
> sure he feels the pain of not having his child with him as much as
> he would like. But that is no excuse for his saying what he did. I
> don't care haw angry a parent may be, he has no right to call his
> daughter a "little pig."
> Father's rights movement will fall apart if they look at situations
> like this and give men(and women) a free ride for saying something
> like this. Shame on Mr' Baldwin and any parent that puts down their
> kids this way.
> ... Let me ask, how many of you, if you had millions of dollars,
> would move to where your child is and put your career on the back
> burner so that you could be with your child? MONEY is more important
> to Mr. Baldwin.
> The sad fact is that some men and women are not fit to be parents.
Based on that should he have limited contact? Forced to attend
counseling or anger management classes? WHen does society have the
right to step into your family life and 'command'.
... I'll be honest, one thing that has surprised me is some of the 'off
the cuff' condemnation of him (as you use below). How many of us have
been on the receiving end of that from a Judge or Social worker? Is
it so easy to give it out to another? Isn't that the problem?
> What I was condemning him for was what he said to his daughter in
> that he called her a pig and that within itself was wrong.
> A lot of parents have been blown away for saying something in the
> heat of the moment and as a parent, he has to realize that it's
> things like this that can adversely affect not only his ability to
> have access to his daughter but more importantly his relationship
> with his daughter. Baldwin is known for his temper and you and I
> both know that when it comes to non-custodial dads, the forces will
> look for the smallest things to put the screws to them.
> Anger within itself is fine, it's a God given emotion but it's what
> we do with our anger that gets us in trouble.
> As I said, I feel bad for Mr. Baldwin and I'm sure he's going
> through hell with this divorce. But he's not unique. Maybe he's more
> frustrated because he has a lot of money behind him and it still
> doesn't matter. I can only think of the many men (and women ... but
> not nearly as much) that don't have the resources Mr. Baldwin has.
> ... Mr. Baldwin was hurt but that's not what he showed his
> daughter. I know he's feeling bad and that's what he's got to let
> his daughter know. Would this Baldwin thing be in the media if the
> message he left was about how he was disappointed, that he really
> looked forward to talking with her?
> ... Mr. Baldwin needs to get his anger in check. Mr. Baldwin needs
> to allow himself to let his feelings come out, feelings that are
> more then likely pain and hurt rather then anger and rage.
> I know he's writing a book and to be honest, I'm not at all
> interested in reading it. He's not representative of the common
> man/dad in these situations. I understand he's been invited to
> joining some father's rights groups and has declined. That says a
> lot about him. He wants to be a champion of a cause but doesn't want
> to join the cause.
> ... Did Mr. Baldwin help or hinder the cause? That's what's
> important in this case. Mr. Baldwin did what many claim dad's do and
> he did it so that all could hear. I was glad to hear that he
> apologized for what he said and that's important for a parent to do,
> admit that he's wrong when he's wrong.
> He made a mistake and that's no reason to limit his contact with his
> daughter. Yes, he does need to work on his anger but shouldn't be a
> requirement for his seeing his daughter. Parents get angry, they do
> lash out and say things they shouldn't. Unless he has a documented
> history where his anger became rage and that rage became violence,
> then I see no reason to mandate him into an anger program. But then
> again, he has to look at himself and honestly determine if he has a
> problem.
> Yes, things are said in the family that we may regret later and hugs
> and kisses can repair the damage but Mr. Baldwin doesn't have that
> luxury, he doesn't have access to his daughter to repair the
> damage. Of course it would be a little easier to do so if he lived
> near her all the time.
> The court system doesn't accommodate natural healing. We all know
> that in so far as the courts concerned, dads are not important
> except for the dollars that they should pay out.
> I don't think what I said was "off the cuff" in that I was looking
> at it as a dad. I was looking at it from the standpoint that no
> parent should say the things he said. I have complete empathy for
> his situation. I hear often, "it's for the kids" so I looked at the
> situation from the daughters point of view. Ms Bassinger <sp> is
> more then likely turning their daughter against Mr. Baldwin, his
> saying what he did sure as heck didn't help things, did it?
> I presume his book, when released, all proceeds will go to dads and
> their fight? Okay, that was sarcasm. I'm sure nothing will go
> anywhere except into his pocket.
> Perhaps it would have been best that none of this came to surface?
--- "ROBIN DENISON" <Buckey01@msn.com>
http://www.parental-alienation-awareness.com/
> I beg to differ with you. My feelings about the Alec Baldwin
> incident:
> I am aghast! Alec Baldwin has just set back by miles, the progress
> on understanding and empathy for targeted parents and families we
> are all working towards. His response to his daughter's behavior is
> a lesson in what NOT to do.
> Those of us who are targeted parents can understand Mr. Baldwin's
> anger and frustration, but the rest of the world cannot .
> If anyone can get in touch with Mr. Baldwin, I hope they can suggest
> he get counseling with an expert who understands PAS, and who can
> help him understand that targeted parents must learn to develop a
> "thick skin" and huge amounts of patience and understanding.
> Alienated children are the puppets of adults who are insensitive,
> and cruel, and who care more about themselves than the needs of the
> child.
> Alec Baldwin's daughter does not know this. Nor, it seems, does
> Mr. Baldwin. Mr. Baldwin, although he may have been treated in the
> most inconsiderate manner by his daughter, needs to understand, that
> he is still the parent, and, as such, must show to his daughter, the
> appropriate way people are supposed to behave.
> Mr. Baldwin has done a great disservice, both to his daughter, and
> to all of the other children who are being victimized by parents who
> would intentionally inflict their agendas of anger and revenge on
> their own children.
> What the rest of the world has heard, is a father who has spoken
> unconscionably to his child, and, who by all intents and purposes,
> by virtue of his own behavior, has had court restrictions placed
> upon him.
I actually thing his actions bring more into focus what our goals are,
that Yes, Mr. Baldwin said a foolish and hurtful thing - BUT he is
still a FIT & EQUAL parent to his daughter, and we condemn a 'system'
that makes parents act this way, and have something to gain by making
it 'public'? He doesn't 'have' to do anything.
I welcome your follow up -- but what he did was 'real', it happens, we
need to be able to embrace that yes, sometimes parents act that way --
but they are still FIT & EQUAL -- and especially with this type of
situation, the whole matter was triggered by the indignity of being
treated as a 'lesser' parent? I like what your wrote and you
expressed it quite well, many people feel as you do.
> Thank you for your response, John. PAAO is preparing a press release
> for tomorrow morning using the incident of Baldwin's phone message
> to his daughter to highlight the importance of awareness of Parental
> Alienation and Hostile Aggressive Parenting. This is actually good
> timing, in that it comes just before International Parental
> Alienation Awareness Day on April 25th. Indeed, Parental Alienation
> can cause normally loving parents to have "knee jerk" reactions,
> such as Mr. Baldwin's, but both parents share responsibility in
> exhibiting behaviors that have been show to be painful and damaging
> to children.
--- Diane Booth <childrescuer@hotmail.com>
> I think he is disgusting. My father NEVER talked to me that way
> EVER, and I would NEVER allow any man to talk to ME that way
> either. If so, they'd be out the door and I'd say HIT THE ROAD,
> JACK, AND DON'T YOU COME BACK NO MORE.
...He is 'disgusting' based on that limited excerpt? What do you
think the consequences should be for him? Limit contact? Force him
to go to counseling? Glad to hear your dad never talked to you that
way, but it does happen sometimes in 'heated' family moments. Let's
also assume he is obviously sorry for what he said -- now what? When
does society have the right to interfere and dictate?
I'm also surprised that you, of all folks, would so quickly label him
as 'disgusting'? Haven't we all experienced those same labels by
people in the system who just make a snap judgment, is it that easy
to apply a degrading term to another parent?
> My father never spoke to me in that manner. I never spoke to my
> child in that manner, and even though I have NOT BEEN ABLE TO SEE MY
> SON IN EIGHT YEARS, I have never even spoken to my social worker or
> the judge in that manner. So what gives Alec Baldwin the right to
> verbally abuse his little girl. Being sorry doesn't take away the
> emotional pain, which never heals. A smack on the butt will go away,
> but words DO hurt children.
> Those in the men's groups who are condoning Alec Baldwin's behavior
> are NOT doing themselves any favors! Everything they are working
> hard to change has now been destroyed by Baldwin and those creeps
> who are defending him! I want nothing to do with these people!
> Of course I realize that families have fights, but you DON'T call
> your little child a "pig". That is unforgivable. Maybe God will
> forgive him, but the rest of us do not have to associate with the
> unfruitful works of darkness. "Have no fellowship with the
> unfruitful works of darkness." I follow that scripture and that is
> why I no longer communicate with most of the parent "victims". If
> they truly are victims they will come to Washington and fight for
> their rights, not defend some asshole like Baldwin!
> And you can pass this along to them too. But I don't want any emails
> from them. I have better things to do with my time - such as shop
> for a nice birthday present for my son!
--- Teresa Wilson <newport_lifesaver@yahoo.com>
> i would not have sympathy for him for the simple fact how he talked
> to his child it is bad that it was aired but he has the money to pay
> his way out of it the child on the other hand, it will affect
> him/her for the rest of his/her life maybe not right away but he/she
> will have issues with it eventually
Many people feel as you do, but I'm not so sure. I'm not sure about
you, but I've had some family 'moments' I would not want broadcast,
some awful things said -- but their was regret, hugs, and with time
forgetting. In the present system, that doesn't happen, and may not
with his poor daughter. It's an excuse to keep them apart longer, more
artificial things? Your thoughts?
> that is true but it is bad for the kids when someone says those
> things especially if it comes from a parent
--- "cathie rockwood" <cathie_nationwide@hotmail.com>
> First time I disagree with you John. The would would be boring if we
> all agreed. Doesn't mean either of us are wrong or right.
> There are many ways to get your feelings across without degrading a
> person with that type of language. Especially a child that
> loves both parents. If this was the only time Alec has had an
> out burst it would be different but there have been quite a
> few. By the way I am a fan of his and have enjoyed him
> on TV and movies.
> As your and my mother was very verbal and we survived it
> and learned from it. That does not mean it is right for anyone
> to speak to anyone let alone a child like that. I feel for Ireland
> because she is dealing with two parents that do not put her feelings
> first. I would imagine she is torn between the both of them.
> I don't feel Alec should be denied phone calls, visits and as many
> as he wants. However, there is no excuse for his way of getting his
> point across. Nor do I feel it should have been broadcast on
> the public air waves. Both parents should grow up for the sake of
> their only child.
--- Anita Barnes <anitafl03@yahoo.com>
> As you usual YOU COMPLETELY MISS THE BOAT!!!!~ This is not about the
> father.....it's about his abusing his 11 year old daughter....this
> scars the child for life!! If he loves his child he'll learn to
> control his anger and learn what it is to know SELFLESS LOVE!
> CHILD ABUSE ....INCLUDING MENTAL BATTERY IS A CRIMINAL ACT. period!
> There is no excuse ever.
> Loving father's don't abuse their children.....they find avenues to
> responsibly manage their differences without engaging in hateful,
> criminal activities and use of fraudulent games.
> FRANKLY....I'M GLAD THAT MR. BALDWIN HAS SHOWN THE WORLD THE TRUTH
> AND REVEALED HIMSELF!!
Thanks for writing and being expressive! I think you must have read
my message below, I think many people have experienced these types of
unfortunate 'moments' with those whom we care about. We are human, we
are emotional, it happens. In a private family their are hugs later
and it is forgotten with time..... are those crimes, mental battery?
http://www.AKidsRight.Org/wordpress/archives/9
--- Nora <Oum777@aol.com>
> You give Mr. Baldwin a lot of credit. I honestly don't know if it
> is due.
> How does one know? The issue with Baldwin is whether he is the
> target of his ex wife's campaign of alienation to turn the child
> against him? How does one know especially in view of his own
> incriminating words. Does his indignity excuse him from the tongue
> lashing?
Isn't the issue whether he (and his former spouse) should be FIT &
EQUAL parents, I think that answer is yes, according to group
standards -- neither of them is a demonstrated serious threat to the
safety of their daughter. Are they good, average, or poor parents - I
don't know what they are today, and being a parent is dynamic, it may
change tomorrow. But I think we can safely say they are not bad
parents.
If they had just been EQUAL parents, all this would have never
happened. The problem was caused by the system and now will probably
be aggravated even more?
--- Asif Suleman <Asif@medis.co.za>
> i normally endorse alot of your views and forward your correspondence
> extensively to others in F4J [Kwazulunatal SOUTH AFRICA]. THIS ONE
> I WONT
> Regrettably ALEC BALDWIN'S comments are totally against all my value
> systems .I really don't care what he has been through,,,,,, but his
> utterances make me want to puke. WAKE UP ALEX. GO TO GYM AND TAKE
> OUT YOUR FRUSTRATION CONSTRUCTIVELY. IF YOU SAY RUBBISH LIKE THIS
> TODAY....YOU WILL SAY ALOT MORE THE NEXT TIME
> JOHN, I see no justification and find it disturbing that you rise to
> his defense is this just because he is a Dad or would you accept
> similar defence on your side for mums
Thanks for taking the time to write. Let me explain a bit and we can
clarify things. I don't, nor does anyone else, think that what he
said is 'okay', the 'defense' was not of that, but to say Mr. Baldwin
is still a FIT & EQUAL parent, as is his spouse, as should be many
parents. I feel the same for mom or dad....
The key item is when does society have the right to impose its will?
Some people have said that contact should be limited with his
daughter, or he should be forced to counseling? The very basis of
this 'outburst' was caused by the indignity of being a 'lesser' parent
-- the 'system' just makes it worse.
Many of us have been through the system, I see your comments to
Mr. Baldwin below -- how many of us have been on the receiving end of
that from some official? What gives you or them the right?
> MANY THANKS FOR YOUR REPLY REGRETTABLY :
> AS MUCH AS I CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING I THINK WE SHOULD
> AGREE TO DISAGREE ON THIS I DON'T THINK IT MAKES HIM LESS OF A PARENT
> OR REMOVES HIS RIGHT TO BE CONSIDERED AN EQUALLY CAPABLE PARENT
> HOWEVER I WOULD STILL MAINTAIN MY STANCE ON HIS NEGATIVE COMMENTS
> EVEN IF HE WERE STILL IN A MARRIAGE COMMENTS LIKE THOSE ALTHOUGH
> FORGIVEN, OFTEN HAS A LASTING NEGATIVE IMPACT ON THE KIDS SENSE OF
> SELF WORTH.
> AS FAR AS THE COMMENTS OF STATE / INSTITUTIONAL INTERFERENCE GOES I
> AGREE ON YOUR STANCE I TOO STILL CHALLENGE INSTITUTIONAL
> INTERFERENCE BOTH IN MY PERSONAL CASE AND THOSE OF OTHER PARENTS
> IN MY PERSONAL CASE HOWEVER, I HAVE A MUM WHO REFUSES COOPERATION
> WITH THE FAMILY ADVOCATES OFFICE, AND IN MY CASE IN DURBAN HIGH
> COURT 18 APRIL 2007 MY CHALLENGE TO THE STATE WHO "CLAIM " TO BE THE
> UPPERMOST CUSTODIAN OF THE CHILD TO ALLOCATE A " GUARDIAN AD LITUM"
> / AMICUS CURIAE TO REPRESENT MY 2 YEAR OLD AND GIVE HER A VOICE IN
> COURT: IT WAS DISMISSED
> ALL THIS TIME AFTER THE 22 MONTH FINANCIALLY BANKRUPTING AND
> EMOTIONAL RAPE OF MY SELF THE MUM HAS SUCCESSFULLY ENTRENCHED
> PARENTAL ALIENATION SYNDROME, AND I HACE ONLY VERY RECENTLY MANGED
> TO GET A COURT ORDER OF 2 HOURS SUPERVISED ACCESS, DURING WORKING
> HOURS, WITH MY EX IN LAWS AS SUPERVISORS AT THEIR HOME ,ONCE A MONTH
> THERE SOMETIMES IS A NEED FOR STATE INTERFERENCE REGRETTABLY WHEN IT
> COMES TO THE STATE ACTING IN DEFENSE OF A CHILD WITH A VERY LIKELY
> FAVORABLE OUTCOME FOR THE CHILD & DAD THEY ARE NOT PREPARED TO ACT
> AND CORRECT THE INJUSTICE PERPETRATED SO MUCH FOR ACT 28 {h] of the
> SOUTH AFRICAN CONSTITUTION AND SOUTH AFRICA'S HUMAN RIGHTS
> CONVENTION SIGNATORY OBLIGATION
> AT ALL TIMES I DISCOURAGE THE ACT OF PROVING 1 PARENT BETTER THAN
> THE OTHER AND ENDORSE THE NO PARENT BETTER THAN THE OTHER PRINCIPLE
> BUT AT THE SAME TIME WE IN THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENTS NEED TO BE
> INTROSPECTIVE AND SELF CRITICAL AND ASK IF WE ARE ACTING IN THE
> CHILD'S BEST INTERESTS, WHEN RISING TO THE DEFENSE OF SUCH COMMENTS.
> I STILL CRINGE AT ALEC'S COMMENTS.
> I THINK OVERALL YOU HAVE SET THE PLATFORM FOR AN INTERESTING TOPICAL
> DIALOG AND WOULD BE PLEASED TO SEE OTHER VIEWS
--- "Michael Robinson" <fastcars@surewest.net>
> With all due respect I disagree with both you and John - there is
> absolutely no excuse for Alec's name calling statements in his voice
> mail message to Ireland. I spoke with many mental health experts
> today about this report and even John Hamel is appalled at Alec's
> remarks. I also spoke with Robin Denison today
> http://www.parental-alienation-awareness.com/ and she feels the same
> way I do and the mental health experts.
> ... I also spoke with James today and he feels the same way. There
> is no defense for Alec's demeaning statements to his daughter. I
> personally know more about his case the what is public and even Stan
> has spoke with him.
> I even spoke with Adyrenn and she also feels the same way. There is
> no defense for the indefensible! To defend Alec's actions in any way
> causes us the loss of any credibility at all in a political
> environment plus it is just flat out wrong to demoralize a child in
> the way Alec did to his own daughter. Frankly Alec made a pretty
> dumb gaff by leaving a message like that knowing that it would be
> admissible in a court of law. Here is a statement I sent out earlier
> today:
> According to Michael Robinson, a family law policy consultant in
> Sacramento California, "The recent news coverage over Alex Baldwin's
> phone message to his daughter Ireland really makes the point as to
> why Parental Alienation and alienating statements made by parents to
> their children needs to be taken very seriously. While some people
> want to minimize and discount the effects alienating statements have
> on children - repeated negative statements directed towards a child
> about the other parent over time is very damaging to the child's
> well being and development and seriously affects the child self
> worth. The damage doesn't end when these children become adults
> either. Children who have been subjected to alienating behavior and
> tactics, often associated with high conflict custody cases, are also
> at higher risk of repeating the same behavior as adults. These
> children also suffer from other behavior and mental disorders."
> Robinson also says, "there is absolutely no justification or even a
> reasonable excuse for a parent to make statements like Baldwin made
> in his phone message to any child. Yes Kim Basinger has done allot
> of button pushing according to past reports on this highly
> publicized high conflict custody battle, but that is no excuse for
> Baldwin's message to his daughter. Allot of the reports have
> reported that Basinger has engaged in making allot of alienating
> statements herself and in my opinion, just as or even maybe more
> responsible for the ongoing problems in this case. Its bad enough
> for a child when you have one parent engaging in alienating behavior
> and tactic's but when you have both parents doing it, this can lead
> to disastrous outcomes for a child. Its time to quit playing special
> interest politics' regarding Parental Alienation and take this
> problem seriously, unless policy makers don't have a problem with
> increasing the number of dysfunctional children with serious
> behavior problems and other disorders?"
... Far from being something we should worry about 'loss of
credibility' over? Mr. Baldwin and his former spouse are a 'classic'
high-conflict divorce, made all the more so (and unfortunately for the
child) because the system is trying to determine 'what's best'. They
should both be FIT & EQUAL parents (even now) in their daughter's life
and the system caused this situation. I think you might disagree?
There has been a lot of feedback from people on this. I think it does
help define ourselves as reformers and what our goals are. I welcome
you to clarify, but I assume you feel a Court should decide what is in
the child's best interest even when neither parent has been convicted
of any crime against their child? That mental health professionals
should evaluate both parents and make a determination as to the 'best'
level of contact with each one? If you have a website with some of
these policy goals I can share it with others in our group. As much
as I don't quite agree, I feel there are many who have similar
feelings right now...
> Actually, no I don't, this case would have been much better off a
> long time ago had Alec and Kim used Collaborative Law. The case
> would have never seen the inside of a court room and they would have
> had the counseling and encouragement by divorce coaches to work
> through their disdain for one another and learn to get along for
> Irelands sake. They could have come to their own agreements without
> court intervention at all; and yes Collaborative has been very
> successful in high conflict cases. There is a 95% success rate with
> less than 5% dropping out. Surprisingly some decide not to get
> divorced at all because of the way the process works. Nationally the
> cases settle on all matters within a 17 week average verses 2 years
> in the adversarial process. ...The adversarial process is no place
> for families to settle their matters.
> I won't defend any parent, male or female who flakes out on their
> child or calls them names. Kim's actions are just as or even more
> appalling to me. In my mind she has been the chief offender. This
> poor child has 2 parents that don't know how to control themselves.
--- Joani <Putzangel@aol.com>
> I think he knows better than to call his daughter names. But the
> point is well taken that these kids should not be allowed to get
> away with this behavior.
... but it was off voicemail and not denied by him. Although
Mr. Baldwin did make a 'public' apology -- not sure why that was
necessary for a private family situation? He does know better, but
like I was trying to say below -- sometimes these 'moments' just
happen in a family.
> I guess I was wrong. I just saw it on the news. He freaked out and
> just made an ass out of himself. Though on the other hand, it is
> starting to get the word out about the psychological abuse alienated
> parents go through to the point of acting irrationally because they
> are so overwhelmed by the loss of th relationship with their
> children. Unfortunately, Alec also has had other behavior
> outbursts which have gotten him into trouble so this may not look to
> good, unless someone does a huge article about the psychological
> abuses parents face from PAS.
--- Marcia <NewYorkStateNOW@aol.com>
> If this was his behavior on the phone, one can only imagine his
> behavior behind closed doors. I, for one, think he should only have
> supervised visitation, if any at all! His obvious threats are to be
> taken very seriously. I don't know what went on in their marriage,
> but based on his obvious sick outrageous behavior, I can understand
> why Kim Bassinger is fighting for full custody of her daughter.
> Baldwin needs help! He is a sick ticket! If he loves his daughter
> so much, he should move closer to her, instead of living half way
> across the world.
... We have gotten a lot of feedback on this and it certainly has
helped people identify what goals they see for family law reform.
For me I think the key part of your reply is "imagine his behavior"
and the way you label him a 'sick ticket'. We have a lot of moms and
dads in the group who have lost contact with their kids because of the
power of imagination and the willingness of a Judge or Social Worker
to quickly label them -- yet we still do it to others?
I don't believe anyone, including Mr. Baldwin, is trying to justify
what we said, but rather, in family sometimes these moments happen...
The system caused this by not recognizing two fit and equal parents,
and now I'm afraid the normal healing that would have rapidly occurred
in private family life, will be much delayed. That is unfortunate.
Your thoughts are welcome.
5. BLAME MOM!
------------
--- "Roger Desbois" <planetary@online.fr>
> ''mother is a thoughtless pain in the ass''
> we are very familiar with this
> Planetary Alliance of Fathers in Exile
> [PAFE] Nice, France
--- Bob Allen <bobx23456@yahoo.com>
> Right on John, The father of the 11 year old should not have had to
> phone her. He should not have been hung up on. He's a victim of
> PAS, as well as C$$ and the whole anti-father establishment. Its
> the MOTHER who ought to be pillared here.
Thanks for taking the time to write. You are correct in that he
should have been a FIT & EQUAL parent and this type of silly stuff
just wouldn't have happened. But I think we should steer clear of
going after Ms. Basinger, or make this a mom v dad thing. Yes, it
does happen to men more often, but it happens to women also. The
problem is the system and the amount of control we have given a single
Judge over family life. Trying to turn this into a gender war and
everybody loses.
--- WaynrDude@aol.com
> This is a crime. CPS is always using the excuse of not being able to
> divulge information because of confidentiality laws. Surely the
> state has laws for the privacy of that minor. The attorney and
> Bassinger should be thrown in jail!
This confidentiality stuff is interesting, sometimes I think it is
there more to protect the system, than the family, especially with
CPS. What about this, family matters are confidential, but if any
party so desires they can make the entire thing public, including any
official records?
> This requirement is currently in place:_____
> http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/laws_policies/policy/pi/pi9907a2.htm
> DCS has refused to give us our file even with redaction or retention
> of the caller ID. I was looking for a quote from a senator from
> TN. He had some dealings with DCS with a divorce and he said, "Who
> are they protecting with confidentiality? It looks like it is the
> State to me!"
--
John Murtari
____________________________________________________________________
Coordinator AKidsRight.Org
jmurtari@AKidsRight.Org "A Kid's Right to BOTH parents"
Toll Free (877) 635-1968(x-211) http://www.AKidsRight.Org/
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